Talk:Redstone circuits/Memory

T Flip-flops Deleted?

Why did someone delete everything about T flip-flops? And why was the circuits page split up? This seems really stupid to me. Mister Momotaro 16:36, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Probably vandalism, it seems to be back now. I took the liberty of adding a proper topic header to your comment. --Mental Mouse 01:03, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it was vandalism, since it was done by Goandgoo. It looks like he accidentally removed some of the Flip-Flop info when he removed the pulse components. And the circuits page was split up because it was insanely long and cluttered, per consensus of various discussions. —Munin295 · · 05:08, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

High and low

The section on D flip flops and latches uses the terms "high" and "low" for what seems to be on and off. Particularly now that signal strength is sometimes relevant, this is incredibly confusing. I wanted to check here first to make sure that on and off is the actual intended meaning, and that if I changed it I wouldn't make the article inaccurate. Monchoman45 03:32, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Relatedly, the JK flip flop section uses 1 and 0, which isn't as confusing, but could be difficult to pick up on for someone who's never heard of binary. Monchoman45 (talk | contribs) 04:06, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

"High" and "low" are common terms when it comes to digital signals, more than "on" and "off" IMO (although that might depend who you talk to). I don't think they're confusing, even considering the quantized signal levels we have now (as long as you know the subject is a digital system—if it's an analogue system, "high" and "low" have no meaning if not defined anyway). OTOH, terminology should *definitely* be defined somewhere among the redstone articles on the wiki, and editing the article here for consistent terminology usage is an improvement (if needed, haven't read it in a while), but I would favour "high" and "low" rather than remove it.

Also, 1 and 0 are more ambiguous than "high" and "low"—you can represent logical 1 with redstone low (= 0 signal) and logical 0 with redstone high (>0 signal). You can also represent it the other way around, logical 1 = redstone high, logical 0 = redstone low. If you're dealing with binary-coded data, you have to know what (redstone) means what (binary) in your design. Some inverted-input or active-low redstone circuits could be said to be a trivial example of that. Laogeodritt ^{[ Talk | Contribs ]} 05:01, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I think it makes sense to introduce/define redstone terms on the main Redstone Circuits page, and then when the term is used on another page for the first time (per page, or per major section, or whatever seems right), simply link it to the main definition. I have an elaboration on power level in my user space (Redstone Circuits 1.5) ready to go once 1.5 is finalized (articles are supposed to describe the published version of Minecraft, which is still 1.4.7 currently, where power level is only significant for redstone wire).

I prefer "on" and "off", simply because we're not writing for electrical engineers, but for the Minecraft community, some of whom are kids or non-native English speakers. "High" and "low" aren't too difficult to understand, but most people think of electricity (the usual metaphor for redstone) as being on or off (light bulbs, appliances, etc.) rather than high or low.

We usually don't worry about the output power level of a latch -- if it's on, it's on (whatever the output power level), otherwise it's off. So it's probably best to just keep discussing the circuits in terms of on and off, and only mention their output power level as an additional consideration if it's important for some reason (most of the circuits have their output right out of a torch though, so probably unlikely). Capacitors (circuits that hold an input power level until reset) will obviously need such a discussion.

—Munin295 · · 08:48, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

The organization of definitions makes sense to me. I'd say that since this is the kind of article that will very often be accessed randomly, not read sequentially, it makes sense to link terminology once per major section—even for someone who knows redstone and needed to look up one of the basic designs, they could come across terminology they don't habitually use.

With regard to "on" and "off", while I don't like them as much for standard terminology (sounds more device-oriented than signal-oriented to my ear), I can understand the accessibility point of view. I've been working with electronics and programming for a few years now, so I don't really have the best perspective of players who aren't familiar in digital circuits or electronics.

Off-topic: Capacitor circuits, huh? Interesting adaptation of the word **capacitor** to redstone.

Laogeodritt ^{[ Talk | Contribs ]} 03:51, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

"...this is the kind of article that will very often be accessed randomly..." That's a very good point. Could justify parenthetical summaries of some terms, in addition to linking to full definitions.

"device" vs. "signal": There really are no signals in redstone circuits -- it's a cellular automaton. Signals, pulses, etc. are just useful metaphors for closely-associated things that are happening too quickly to discern discretely. : )

The "capacitor" circuits I've seen actually act more like a superconducting loop (feeding the same power level around in a comparator loop) than an electronic capacitor. I wonder if we could simulate electron flow using items through hoppers -- then build a circuit that would cause items building up in one hopper to "push" items out of a nearby (but not adjacent) hopper, and items flowing out to cause the other hopper to pull other items back in? That would be tough -- each hopper in the wire would have to compare the fullness of both its neighbors to decide which way to push items... Actually, I don't think I've seen two-way hopper pipes. Maybe with two lines of hoppers going in each direction with double chests every other space to have room to tile 1-wide processing circuits... Hmmm... Actually, it would probably be easier to reverse the direction of water in an item channel...

—Munin295 · · 07:12, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

(Switching to non-threaded indentation for readability).

With regard to random access, I would say that's even more of a reason to link, not to repeat—summarizing or repeating definitions would be even more redundant than for a monolithic article. I would go with the Wikipedia convention here of relying on article/section links to explain concepts that are related to the article subject, and sticking to what needs to be explained on the subject itself.

With regard to "signal", I would disagree (on a fairly academic point—it doesn't matter in any practical sense), in that I would define "signal" not as any physical realization or entity (whether in a Minecraft or real-life context), but any function of time carrying information (including just a DC/constant value—"on" and "off" is information). I think your argument of signals as an abstraction apply to lumped linear circuit models too. In the case of redstone, a "signal" would be physically realized as the state of a redstone node over time. (Again, doesn't matter in any practical sense—I'm not trying to be pedantic in arguing the terminology issue earlier, only bringing up an academic point.)

I'm aware of the electronic capacitor's behaviour (I do more analogue than digital, after all =] ), I just thought it was an interesting leap of logic into the redstone capacitor circuits you described. The latter sound more like a sample-and-hold circuit—which is essentially designed around a capacitor. I can't help but think that hopper-based flow simulations would be either incredibly slow or a very low-resolution quantization...

(Also, yay for remembering basic formatting wiki syntax on my third try! I've been using Markdown and LaTeX too much lately, I've forgotten wiki syntax...)

Laogeodritt ^{[ Talk | Contribs ]} 00:34, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Piston changes in 1.5

Am I the only one who is annoyed by the removal of the 1-tick-functionality in sticky pistons? There are so many complex and simple constructions like elevators or T-FlipFlops that do not work any more. And there is no upside because you had to do specific things to receive this behavior... There was absolutely no need to fix that bug, because it wasn't a bug (any more at least)... 91.89.80.31 16:01, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

The 1-tick functionality of sticky pistons has not been removed, it's only that some 1-tick pulse generators have been broken. Two 1-tick pulse generators that still work are the circuit breaker (dust, block over sticky, repeater) and the repeater lock pulsegen (two repeaters facing into dust and sideways repeater).

—Munin295 · · 16:22, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

That's good news! I'll have a look at that.. thank you! 91.89.80.31 16:42, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

New T-Flipflop Design

With comparators, it is very easy to use a dispenser with a bucket of water or lava as the latch of a T-Flipflop. I don't have the means to make the diagram myself, so I will try to describe it here.

A dispenser with one empty bucket attached to a comparator emits a signal strength of 1, however a bucket of water/lava makes it emit strength 2. As we all know, a signal of any length will fire the dispenser once, either retrieving or placing the liquid block depending on its current state.

  B--DOO
     C
     |
     |
     R 

B is a button, or other input device to activate the t-flipflop. D is the dispenser, it must be pointing toward the Open space (O) if sideways, or you can place it facing down with a single space empty underneath.

C is the comparator, which requires two blocks of redstone wire be placed before placing the Repeater (R). Each press of the button will turn the repeater on or off. Template:UnsignedIP

Sounds like it would work. Containing the dispensed lava/water would probably be the issue. However, in a smaller space you can make Grizdale's dropper TFF, which doesn't depend on output strength.

Anyway, this talk page is for discussing the Latches article. The forums would be a better place to talk about new designs. —Munin295 · · 21:14, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Sub-pages reaching schematic limit.

"RS Latches" in particular is getting harder to save. I'm considering merging it back into Memory, using Loadbox for the separate schematics. Thinking ahead, this will make for a long article. And I just checked, LoadBox doesn't work inside a LoadFile. --Mental Mouse 13:08, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Agree. I think moving the majority of the content back into all the redstone articles should be a goal (probably with most or all the schematics offloaded individually or in small thematically-linked groups with LoadBox) -- it makes it a lot easier to scan down an article looking for what you want. Long articles are fine, as long as its a cohesive topic (which this would be, unlike say Tutorials/Mechanisms).

—Munin295 · · 17:40, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Well if we re-merge them, there's no "probably" about offloading the schematics, and LoadBox seems to be the best tool we have for that. At least the headers will work properly. --Mental Mouse 20:04, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Grizdale design A schematic wrong

The schematic for the A design for the Grizdale T Flip-Flop design shows a button on the bottom dropper, but the button must be on the top dropper. Zaralith 02:02, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Correct. I've revised the schematics, and just stated the requirement in the caption, rather than trying to represent it with a hard-to-see button.

—Munin295 · · 06:08, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Circle of Stones memory circuit

I've been looking through the redstone pages for a memory circuit I've used a few times and can't seem to find it. I'm sure it would count as a memory circuit, because it remembers which of 12 values it's currently in. That's gotta go under the "memory" heading, right? Anyway, it uses a "circle" of stones (actually a square, and I usually use gold blocks rather than stone just to show off) with a pit 1 square below it with a powered redstone wire. The stones are acting as circuit breaks. Pistons juggle the stones, advancing them 2 spaces (well the whole thing fires twice to do that). Mixed in with the gold blocks is a brick slab (the "impurity" in the gold) and whatever position that slab is in fails to break the circut. The only thing here I saw that mentioned pistons just mentioned using them to move a block between 2 spaces for an on/off effect. –Preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.68.154.229 (talk) 03:48, 9 December 2013(UTC). Please sign your posts with ~~~~