Talk:Mechanics/Redstone/Circuit/Archive 3

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This is an archive page of Talk:Mechanics/Redstone/Circuit. Do not edit this page.
New sections can be added at the current talk page.

Bat based RNGs[edit]

I was thinking of doing some further research into RNG circuits made with bats in minecarts, but wasn't sure where to put that information. obviously the premise is simple - have a bat in a minecart over some detector rails - but where should that information go? Firebastard 04:05, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Random number generators? They're currently in Miscellaneous circuits. --Munin295 04:37, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. I recall that being on this page and was wondering where it had gone. There should probably be a link to there somewhere on this page, perhaps alongside the advanced circuits page in the see also section. Firebastard 05:43, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
Randomizers (of which RNGs are a significant subset) are listed as a topic under "Other advanced circuits", and that section already includes a link to Miscellaneous circuits. It is all the way at the bottom of the page, so it might be hard to find, but then again it's a much more obscure topic than the other circuits above it. I'll try to work the phrase "random number generator (RNG)" in there somewhere (sometime; or you can), since that is a phrase one might search for. --Munin295 06:50, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

More targeted tutorials[edit]

I'd like to see some plans for more complex but practical systems, such as:

  • You have a rail loop (that is, a station) with two exits. You want to be able to:
    • open the loop at either T junction with a button, but...
    • also have the loop re-closed when a new train comes in, so it doesn't just head onward to the next station. An alternative would be to have it stay open for a few seconds, long enough to feed a Powered Minecart and have it push two or three carts out of the station.

So far, I've managed to get a D flip-flop with a detector rail (on the far side of the loop :-( ) going to the clock, and the button going to both the clock and the data. I had to put two extra repeaters protecting the clock line, and I'm still not sure why. This sort of thing should be a "solved problem" by now, and I'm not wild about having to reinvent it. --Mental Mouse 16:58, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

So you're saying we need complicated but practical circuits? I might be able to help. I have a working 4 digit keypad, very customizable. Buttons must be pushed in a certain order. With the addition of the Latch though I may be able to make it more practical, because it takes up a fairly large space. But if you push the wrong button, or push them out of order, the circuit resets and you need to start over. I'm working on a display that functions for it, but it requires so much it would be very impractical. Without the display though it's pretty useful. Not sure if there are designs already for it, but it can be make to have as many inputs as desired (as many correct buttons and in any order). Maybe I can provide a few screenshots of my first successful attempt on it, it is only tall because i thought i would need alot of space, so i used worldedit to make a large platform. #trigger_hurt(I|T|C) Check out my project! 18:15, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
I have made several different circuits without tutorials, and can make most of those circuits I know in minutes, if not seconds, including the keypad. Something else I made that is so compact that you could almost install it into a regular home, is a hidden lavaplace entrance. There are others now, but mine has the wall which I have not seen in any of the other videos I've seen. #trigger_hurt(I|T|C) Check out my project! 19:42, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
I'm less concerned with keypads and similar circuits than with all the little ways in which redstone can be useful... if you can figure out a circuit that does what you want without sprawling over half the countryside. Traffic management for minecarts is a biggie (and I'm about to try a pulse extender instead of my prior solution above), but even things like making a Redstone Lamp blink (but compactly, because it's atop a pillar) would be good, or a prefab clock with period over a few seconds (including describing the adjustments to make it longer or shorter). --Mental Mouse 23:31, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Also: tips for compact crossovers!

Possibility of dividing Redstone Circuits to 2 majoy parts[edit]

Because of the Redstone Update to be deployed in 1.5, the Redstone Circuits which is used to be totally digital, will contains analog components. So I suggest to divide Redstone Circuits to 2 majoy parts: Analog and Digital. More details to be discussed. What do your guys think of it? -- Sjjklh ZH Wiki Admin 02:03, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Or just add a analog section? -- Sjjklh ZH Wiki Admin 02:45, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that will be necessary.
If we take "analog" to mean "power level can vary from 0 to 15 by integers", then redstone wire has always been analog and it's been pretty easy to describe its qualities alongside components which can only be on or off. I don't think it will be difficult to incorporate descriptions of the new components into the current structure.
When pistons came out, people started posting piston circuits as a whole new category and there really wasn't any reason to do that. An AND Gate is an AND Gate, whether it uses pistons or not. Circuits should be organized by their purpose, not by what components are used to achieve that purpose. When 1.5 is released, we just update the Basic Concepts section to introduce power levels better, add the new components to the Circuit Components section, and people can add new circuits that incorporate the new components to the appropriate subpages.
Unless you're talking about the ZH page, which is still based on the old version of this page? With that version, a new section might make sense.
Munin295 · 16 px 16 px · 03:33, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm now starting to think that a section on analog circuits (and a corresponding article to go into full details, like the other circuit topics) may be warranted. With capacitors (comparator loops that hold a power level) and arithmetic circuits, I think there is enough new subject matter that wouldn't fit anywhere else (well, comparator loops could probably work in an article about memory circuits, but it makes more sense to put them with the arithmetic circuits, I think).
Munin295 · 16 px 16 px · 00:47, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
 Agree A new section and matching article sounds about right. We'll see over time if analog circuits take off, but my hunch is they'll be showing up mostly as "component" circuits. --Mental Mouse 02:32, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

1.5 Redstone Ticks[edit]

Does/will the concept of a redstone tick exist anymore? My understanding is that redstone ticks used to be a separate process from game ticks, but that now all redstone activity is processed in the same game ticks as everything else. If that's correct, should we be talking about (for example) redstone repeaters being set to 2, 4, 6, or 8 game ticks (though we'd just call them ticks from now on, I guess)? That specifically may sound weird at first, but if it's more accurate, and avoids discussing other things in terms of half-ticks (half a redstone tick), it may be preferred? —Munin295 · 16 px 16 px · 23:49, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I think not changing anything would be best. Pokechu22 00:15, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Just a thought, what if we discussed everything in real-life terms: a redstone torch has a 1/10 second delay, a repeater can be set to a delay of 1/10 to 4/10 seconds, etc.? Then there would be no confusion about what kind of ticks we're talking about… —Munin295 · 16 px 16 px · 23:26, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Updating for 1.5[edit]

I've started work on updating this page for 1.5 (though we're still currently some snapshots away, so things will likely change before then). I'm doing the work in my own user space for now at Redstone Circuits 1.5 so as not to clutter this page with un-finalized content. Please feel free to discuss or contribute.

Munin295 · 16 px 16 px · 06:00, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Does this mean that after the update pistons with clocks attatched to pulse them at regular intervals will actually turn back off again?!?!?! i am having some serious problems building decent redstone contraptions because of this, i am having to either reduce the size of them dramatically or just not bother i am talking about the xbox 360 version just to be clear 15:15, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
I'm not familiar with that problem, sorry. Try asking on the forums, you'll get a lot more eyeballs on your question.
Munin295 · 16 px 16 px · 17:55, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Split off Redstone Components?[edit]

The section on redstone components takes up over half the article. Although I think it's very useful to have such a compilation of all redstone components and their features in a single place (I use it to look things up, and I wrote most of it :-), maybe it should be its own article? The Basic Concepts section already introduces the concepts of redstone components, so it would be easy to link to a new article from there.

Munin295 · 16 px 16 px · 04:26, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

 Agree Yeah, all the other sections are summaries that link to more extensive discussions, but Components is an exhaustive listing. I agree, split it out and put a summary in it's place. --Mental Mouse 00:07, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
Split complete.
Munin295 · 16 px 16 px · 18:11, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Rewrote subpages for new Schematic template.[edit]

I've now translated most of the subpages of Redstone Circuits (Logic Circuits, Pulse Components, Clocks, Latches, Other Circuits) to use the new Template:Schematic for their circuit diagrams. (The "Repeater" subpage still needs to be done, as I didn't notice it on the first pass.) This includes splitting most of the diagrams out into subpages, because despite Munin295's best efforts, the template does have an effective limit to how many schematic cells are allowed on a page. (If there are too many, loading or viewing the page becomes excessively slow.) A guide to reading the schematics can be found at Help:Schematic, while a style guide for writing up redstone circuits can be found (for now) at Minecraft Wiki:Projects/Style Guide/redstone. (It needs a permanent address....)

While I've done a fair bit of cleanup and rewriting on the files, I've also left a lot of older and commented material in order to keep it in the page histories for this changeover. They will still need a lot of community work -- some of which I'll continue to work on over time, but some is likely beyond my expertise or patience. Specifically, what's needed:

  1. Verification that the diagrams I marked broken are, in fact broken, and testing of others to make sure they still work (I have not tested every diagram here!)
  2. Clearing out the commented images and other detritus of the transformation.
  3. Commenting, then clearing out, confirmed-broken circuits.
  4. Identifying and commenting out circuits that are redundant, obsolete, or just have no reason for people to build them. Some exceptions can be made for historical interest, e.g. torch gates. Also, "rule of cool" applies.
  5. Checking the various tables and claims in text. (Also, removing data for deleted circuits.)
    • In particular, the circuit dimensions are remarkably inconsistent, and I've seen the height (Y coordinate) in all three positions. Let's standardize on putting the Y coordinate last, and the shorter horizontal coordinate first. Thus X×Z×1 is a flat circuit, and 1×Z×Y is a 1-wide circuit. Also, required supporting blocks get counted -- the circuit gets measured "in a void" rather than "from the ground".
    • Timing data and pulse characteristics are always welcome.
  6. General cleanup, adjusting arrangement of diagrams and flow of text.
    • Relettering circuits as suitable for the discussion.
    • Filling in descriptions and captions for circuits, expanding discussion where it's sparse.
    • There are places where the redstone connections may not match the game anymore. In particular, MCSim apparently doesn't have a glyph for redstone dots (the template does), and some of the redstone shown as 4-ways are actually dots.
    • I've mostly been using the default 32-pixel size. Some of these may be better reduced to 24 pixels.

--Mental Mouse 03:22, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks again for your work. Your taking an interest in this also really helped me commit to working on and finishing the projects I had going for this.
Just so you know, I'm working on a total re-write of Redstone Circuits/Repeater at User:Munin295/Transmission circuits. Repeaters really aren't enough to justify an article of their own, but they are part of a larger subject that is worth it and not addressed well currently: transmission). I'm also using that page to test some ideas about writing circuit articles. I'm not saying don't work on /Repeater, but there isn't much to do there anyway (half of the article is the "Triggered Repeaters" which are actually clocks, and really bad ones; they should just be removed).
Munin295 · 16 px 16 px · 04:42, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

SR vs. RS[edit]

My understanding is that SR is the more general term ("Set-Reset"), and RS should only be used for specific implementations of SR Latches where the inputs are inverted (reversing the meaning of the inputs). The only reason that the use of RS is so frequent is that the most common implementations of SR Latches in electronics are the RS NOR Latch and the RS NAND Latch. But that doesn't change the fact that the category is more accurately called SR Latches.

Hmmm. I see your point (heck, I tossed in a design that doesn't have a single inverter), but I'm kinda flinching at the idea of trying to explain that without derailing the section introduction. Let alone filenames, headers, and the like. I might figure it out eventually, but I sure wouldn't mind if you got there first. --Mental Mouse 01:49, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
It's not a big deal either way. I wouldn't bother trying to explain the difference here on Redstone Circuits, but it might be worth a mention on the Memory circuits page.
Munin295 · 16 px 16 px · 04:45, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
I started to write the comment, and besides it being too long, I realized there was something I didn't understand. You talk about both inputs being inverted, but that's not just swapping the inputs -- it would make the inputs signal low -- for example R = S = 0 would be the forbidden input instead of R = S = 1. How did this get attached to the Minecraft circuits, which do involve lots of inverters but generally signal high? --Mental Mouse 02:37, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
RS NOR Latch (reset state)
No, it's still R = S = 1 which is forbidden, it's just that the first thing an RS Latch does is invert those inputs, inside the circuit. For example, a typical Minecraft "RS NOR Latch" NORs S and Q, so for the S input signal the first thing that could happen to it is that its inverse moves into the circuit. S = R = 1 is "forbidden"/unpredictable in such a circuit because it would hold both torches off (and then Q = Q̅!), and if both S and R turned off at the same time, it would be difficult to predict what state it would end up in. But S = R = 0 is fine, nothing happens.
Munin295 · 16 px 16 px · 03:24, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Move requests -- I dunno.[edit]

Why is it necessary to move the pages? Also, if they are moved, their subpages will need to go with them, and the loadPages will need to be adjusted. --Mental Mouse 11:10, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

These are all real articles in their own right, and wikis should be organized by adding categories to the article, not by grouping them in some directory structure (for the same reason that the Redstone Style Guide should have been its own page, rather than a subpage of the main style guide). Subpages are fine for functionality-supporting pages or article fragments, like loaded pages, but not for actual articles. For example, "Particle Physics", though a subtopic of "Physics", shouldn't be a subpage of "Physics".
Wiki article names should also be intuitively linkable: "Pulse circuits" can be naturally linked in text, "Redstone Circuits/Pulse components" can't.
When you move a page there's an option to move all subpages at the same time. That will leave redirects behind, so no links get broken and everything keeps working. Then you can leave them like that, update them by hand, or ask an admin to run a bot. It's only 20 or so links that will need to be updated, in only four articles currently -- easy to do by hand, either directly after the move, or the next time the page is edited.
Munin295 · 16 px 16 px · 16:14, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Okay, you've convinced me. --Mental Mouse 22:25, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Cool. : )
I'll wait a week to see if anybody else has thoughts. We've actually been using these article names in the redstone navbox for a while, so they should be okay.
Munin295 · 16 px 16 px · 00:50, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Well, ultradude25's discussion about singular vs. plural article titles had convinced me that most of the circuit articles should have singular titles (e.g., "Pulse circuit") and I had modified the move proposals to reflect that and had planned to wait some more time to see if anyone objected. But a brand new user went ahead and executed the move from Latches to "Memory circuit". Since I personally didn't have any objections to the move, I went ahead and did some clean-up after it. I'm still going to wait a few days to do the others though.
Munin295 · 16 px 16 px · 15:52, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Problem with subpages -- weren't moved[edit]

Munin, you didn't move the Ajax subpages of the pages you moved! --Mental Mouse 22:52, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I clicked the Move Subpages box when it was available. The logic subpages were created with a path of "Redstone circuits/Logic Circuits/*" which wasn't the same path as the article at "Redstone circuits/Logic", so the wiki didn't recognize them as subpages and offer to move them too. You fixed them, and I've updated the load paths on the other pages now.
BTW, I'd recommend not suppressing the redirect, unless you're doing maintenance in your own userspace. The moved pages might not be linked to from the rest of the wiki, but they might be bookmarked, indexed, etc. elsewhere, and suppressing redirects will break those links. —Munin295 · 16 px 16 px · 00:11, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
Ah, I see -- the mismatch confused the Wiki. Normally I wouldn't have suppressed redirects, but these are at this point fragments rather than full articles, and this was hopefully their last move for a while. Regardless, thanks again for your work on this.

Category Sort Keys[edit]

I've belatedly realized that many of the Redstone subpages have sort keys in their "Category" tag, apparently to sort them by topic instead of by path.. Without the keys, they would sort with their parent page, which seems more sensible to me (especially since the top-level topics now have proper pages). Is there any strong opinion out there as to which is more appropriate? --Mental Mouse 14:22, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorting by parent page makes sense to me. —Munin295 · 16 px 16 px · 17:04, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Anchors and such...[edit]

Nice work, Munin! Are you going to continue on Logic circuits, or can I start transferring text from the "galleries" to the main file? --Mental Mouse 19:59, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Absolutely go ahead with anything you're interested in doing. I bounce around from article to article, based on what I'm playing around with in the game at the time, and never know what I'm going to work on next (right now I'm sandboxing some ideas for the Enchantment article, but they're not looking good … *sad*). : )
Munin295 · 16 px 16 px · 00:29, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

What is an "opaque block"?[edit]

Some examples would be nice –Preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) at 18:44, 31 August 2013‎ (UTC). Please sign your posts with ~~~~

Also, I've added some examples and links.
Munin295 · 16 px 16 px · 20:04, 31 August 2013 (UTC)