Talk: Banner/Archive 1

How to create patterns

Creating a list on how to add different patterns. Every recipe needs 1 banner as well, not important in what box though. If someone could think of a way to implement this into the article it'd be great. Feel free to add more recipes to the following list:

Ingredients	Crafting recipe
Any Dye + Any Banner

Dot in middle

Ingredients	Crafting recipe
Any Dye + Any Banner

Square in top right corner

Ingredients	Crafting recipe
Any Dye + Any Banner

Square in top left corner

Ingredients	Crafting recipe
Any Dye + Any Banner

Square in bottom left corner

Ingredients	Crafting recipe
Any Banner + Any Dye

Square bottom right corner

Ingredients	Crafting recipe
Any Dye + Any Banner

Downward-going triangle from top

Ingredients	Crafting recipe
Any Dye + Any Banner

Upward-going triangle from bottom

Ingredients	Crafting recipe
Any Dye + Any Banner

Left bottom to right top diagonal line

Ingredients	Crafting recipe
Any Dye + Any Banner

Right bottom to left top diagonal line

Ingredients	Crafting recipe
Any Dye + Any Banner

Two diagonal lines creating an 'X'

Ingredients	Crafting recipe
Any Dye + Any Banner

Three small triangles at top

Ingredients	Crafting recipe
Any Dye + Any Banner

Three small triangles at bottom

Ingredients	Crafting recipe
Any Dye + Any Banner

Horizontal line

Ingredients	Crafting recipe
Any Dye + Any Banner

Vertical line

Ingredients	Crafting recipe
Any Dye + Any Banner

Diamond in the middle

Ingredients	Crafting recipe
Any Dye + Any Banner

Top third becomes colored

Ingredients	Crafting recipe
Any Dye + Any Banner

Top half becomes colored

Ingredients	Crafting recipe
Any Banner + Any Dye

Bottom third becomes colored

Ingredients	Crafting recipe
Any Dye + Any Banner

Vertical stripes

Ingredients	Crafting recipe
Any Dye + Any Banner

Left third becomes colored

Ingredients	Crafting recipe
Any Dye + Any Banner

Left half becomes colored

Ingredients	Crafting recipe
Any Dye + Any Banner

Right third becomes colored

--Sanoth^t|c 14:10, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

You can also copy a banner's patterns to another blank banner of the same base color by placing the two banners in the crafting grid. Anomie x (talk) 15:24, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Here is a list of all availiable patterns: http://redd.it/2bhsjb--FreundTech (talk) 15:27, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Nice, Ill soon add this info :)--Sanoth^t|c 15:29, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Ingredients	Crafting recipe
Any Dye + Any Banner

Half and Half Triangle

206.248.170.93 16:37, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Added border and cross patterns, but missing pictures. 87.219.198.113 16:05, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

They also added Curly Border and Mojang logo. Craftingrecepies are in the album I posted above. (The Reddit Link) --FreundTech (talk) 18:40, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

How to report the number of possible patterns (I really don't like "160,016 trillion")

It should be "160 quadrillion", or "160 016 000 000 000 000". Another option would be to use scientific notation: "1.60016x10¹⁷" but certainly not "160,016 trillion". Cultist O (talk) 11:14, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Of your options, I prefer "160 quadrillion." I think I went with trillion originally because a) I wanted more than 3 significant figures and b) as you start using higher and higher *illion numbers, it becomes more and more abstract, and I thought trillion was somewhat of a compromise -- but it does look wicked ugly. By all means make it look better. – Sealbudsman (Aaron) (talk) – 12:03, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

That is also a bad choice, as “quadrillion” means 10¹⁵ when using the short scale, but 10²⁴ when using the long scale. Scientific notation is less ambiguous. —F‌enhl 12:11, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm starting to agree with you, the *illions are a terrible mess. If it were scientific notation, I would suggest somewhat fewer than 6 significant figures, though. Six seems like conspicuous yet useless precision. Maybe 3 or 4. – Sealbudsman (Aaron) (talk) – 12:30, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Although, the style guide does indicate to use U.S. English, within which the *illion numbers are unambiguous.. – Sealbudsman (Aaron) (talk) – 18:39, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Is there really value in reporting the number of possible pattern combinations? Moral of the story is that there's a LOT and we won't run out any time soon. Every time they add a new pattern (like they just did in 14w31a) you have to recalculate the number, and the number doesn't even account for visually distinct combinations. Can we just say like "Well over 100 quadrillion (1x10¹⁷)" or "millions upon millions" or something silly like that? --Kahless61 (talk) 18:27, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

yeah, no use really except to just do it once right and get it over with.. not super useful, that's why it's in trivia. – Sealbudsman (Aaron) (talk) – 23:47, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Soring of Patterns

Is there any reason the Patterns are sorted like this on the wiki page? Could you also use a different order? I would suggest using the order in the translation file (minecraft.jar/assets/minecraft/lang/en_US.lang). That's the same order I used here: http://imgur.com/a/gwCaz

--FreundTech (talk) 10:50, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

The patterns do need some organizing. They could even be separated into different sections. --Neutral0814 (talk) 18:27, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Banner images

Hello,

At the moment the result banner is just a plain banner, it would be better to add all the different types of banner grid images with one pattern, could this be done with some transparent grid images that are added over normal flags? Or would they have to be uploaded individually, that would mean we have to make 16 (the number of banner colours) * 15 (The number of possible pattern colours, not 16 because you can't see the pattern if it's the same as the banner) * 33 (the number of patterns) = 7920 --> Kinda impossible. -- TheWombatGuru ^{t | c} NL Admin 11:44, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

It should be possible using the "default=" from Template:Grid. I'll try to work something out. --FreundTech (talk) 13:15, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

EDIT: I looked into it. It isn't possiple with the current crafting template. I would need to change some thing is the grid module (Which is write-protected). I will create a new copy of the grid module and change it, so banners are possible. After this someone with higher permissions can update the grid module. I will post here again when I'm finished. --FreundTech (talk) 14:04, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I think it is possible with that default feature, look at this: User:TheWombatGuru/Grid -- TheWombatGuru ^{t | c} NL Admin 07:45, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

The Problem is, that you can't use the default attribute when using the crafting template. It only works in the grid template. Also that's not what the default attribute was made for :D

btw: How are the tumbnail images generated? are they just copied out of screenshots? Or are they created using a 3D-animation program or something like this? --FreundTech (talk) 09:16, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Owh, I didn't know that. I simply made a flag in Minecraft with that one triangular pattern, cut the pattern out of the flag, and made the background transparent, that's probably not how it should be done, but great for testing. -- TheWombatGuru ^{t | c} NL Admin 09:18, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Do you know software I can use for it? And do you know where the patterns are saved in .minecraft, or are they coded pixel for pixel? -- TheWombatGuru ^{t | c} NL Admin 09:32, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

I think it would be faster to just replace banner.png in the banner folder to just a black image and banner_base.png in the entity folder with a transparent png. This results in an image with just the pattern in the item slot. Yetanotherguy 09:40, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

I think it would be possible to create the thumbnails using Blender, but I haven't tested it yet. Patterns are saved in minecraft.jar/assets/minecraft/textures/entity/banner/. Every texture consists out of a pattern and the same pattern again, but mirrored. Everything that is black will be transparent ingame. everything that's white will have the color of the pattern. --FreundTech (talk) 09:59, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

I know someone makes them in some 3D modeling program. I have made some single-block 3D orthographic renders before, but I'm not sure about the exact dimensions and things for the banner. If you decide to try to make this one, just make sure you use the orthographic camera option in blender, and setup the correct camera angle also. — 16 px PangeaCake | 16 px 16 px | 19:57, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Heraldic Blazon

Would heraldic blazons be permissible alongside the existing descriptions? Drenay (talk) 20:15, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I highly agree with this. Giving the heraldic blazons will take the guesswork out of describing the patterns (charges) on the banners. Plus, it's searchable on Google. --14.1.210.175 03:01, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

99.999% of readers will have absolutely no idea what these terms mean, won't remember them, and will just be confused by them ("chief", "fess", "saltire"? no thank you). At best they might be worth describing in Trivia (which is where we usually mention real-life correspondences). All of these patterns have in-game names, viewable when you hover over a patterned banner in your inventory. Those in-game terms are the names we should be using. —munin · 16 px 16 px · 03:40, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

I just thought someone messed the translations up in the wiki. Likle from spanish or so. --92.224.4.141 18:16, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

jeb_ posted here: http://redd.it/2bkxej that he isn't happy with names and they will be changed to propper vexillologian terms soon. I would just wait until this happens. --FreundTech (talk) 09:27, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Ignoreusage on crafting recipes

Powup333 has suggestion we set the recipes to not show up in {{Crafting usage}}. While the flood of recipes on the dyes is annoying, I think the rest of the recipes are still helpful on the other pages. Although there may be a problem with having only some of the recipes set to "ignoreusage". Opinions? --KnightMiner ^(t|c) 17:54, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm not exactly sure what the ignoreusage tag does, but I believe all of the pattern recipes are banner crafting recipes, and should go in the Crafting section, and thus should be treated like all other crafting recipes. Crafting recipes which use the banner should only go in the Usage section if the crafting actually produces a different item (with a different id). Banner patterns are no different than colored wool, they're all just banners and this is how you craft/obtain them. Would that affect the discussion? : ) —munin · 16 px 16 px · 18:37, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Ignoreusage means the recipe will not get transcluded onto other pages using {{crafting usage}}. Basically, if you go to Bone Meal, you will not see all the banner recipes. --KnightMiner ^(t|c) 18:40, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I think that the purpose of the crafting usage section is to inform players what the block/item can be made into, it is kind of rediculous that when you go to other pages that it gives you all these pattern recipes and none of them told you how to make a banner. If a player likes to know how to add patterns to their banner, they should go to the banner page, where there is a complete list and more details about it. I believe that the pattern recipes are considered "useless information" in other pages and therefore should not be shown. —Powup333 ZH Admin 15:34, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Powup333; I would be in favor of having one recipe box stand in for all of them, perhaps Emblazons a per bend sinister (upper-left half colored), and making it clear that the one example pattern is one of many patterns, and providing a link to the Banner page. It's not really relevant, in my view, in an article about orange dye, to go into the many patterns that can go on banners, when all you really need to convey about the dye is that among other things like stained glass, leather armor, wool, fireworks etc, you can use orange dye to put patterns on banners -- that's the relevant thing.

To munin's point that banner patterns are no different than colored wool, I have to point out that there is a difference, namely, colored wool doesn't come with 35+ crafting recipes and take up screens and screens of vertical space; I think banner recipes are different, and a unique case, and it would be safe to treat them differently, for readability's and usability's sake. – Sealbudsman (Aaron) frameless (t|c) – 16:09, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

It would be nice if we could somehow make an "all banners" crafting recipe, which just animated between every different recipe. Maybe we can put that on each dye, and make all of these "ignoreusage"

What about if we put something like this on the various dyes and make the recipes ignore usage? --KnightMiner ^(t|c) 17:01, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Elegant, I think. I know FreundTech, PangeaCake and TheWombatGuru were discussing making grid-images for each banner pattern, and I'm not sure how far they got with that, but would your demo also rotate through the different output patterns if they became available? – Sealbudsman (Aaron) frameless (t|c) – 17:16, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

FreundTech said he would look into it, haven't seen any activity from his side. — TheWombatGuru ^{t | c} NL Admin 17:22, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I could simply by adjusting the output column. Of course, the banners would mostly be restricted to from one color to another (eg, black pattern on red). --KnightMiner ^(t|c) 17:28, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Template is complete, over at {{Banner crafting}}. If the consensus is to use it, it can get added to the dye articles. --KnightMiner ^(t|c) 19:05, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

KnightMiner I tried to mess around with some templates and created this, User:TheWombatGuru/Template:Banner. Could it be useful? Example: User:TheWombatGuru/Template:Banner — TheWombatGuru ^{t | c} NL Admin 22:12, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

For use as a grid, yes. But in the crafting template, there is a lack of the "default" parameter, since the parameter was mainly designed for the brewing stand. It might be useful to ask over on {{Inventory slot}} to add some sort of overlay parameter, to allow for the banner patterns to work better.

Other than that, in what way would we show the patterns? The recipes currently cycle through all the recipes with banner and dye the same, so would we pair up colors or try to show every one of them? --KnightMiner ^(t|c) 22:25, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

{{Banner crafting}} is close to what I was thinking needed to be done. As for overlays: I see little need for it, since we should just display a single banner colour as the background. Complex recipes like this are difficult to try to cram into a diagram, and are best simplified with the full functionality clarified in text. –Majr ᐸ Talk
Contribs ⎜ 02:58, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

@KnightMiner: I converted your template into a module as

|A1=;{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};;;;{{#var:Dye}};;{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};;{{#var:Dye}};;;;{{#var:Dye}};;{{#var:Dye}};;;;{{#var:Dye}};;;{{#var:Dye}};;;;;{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};
|B1=;{{#var:Dye}};;;{{#var:Dye}};;;;;;{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Banner}};;;;;;;;{{#var:Dye}};;{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Dye}}
|C1=;{{#var:Dye}};;{{#var:Dye}};;;;{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};;;{{#var:Dye}};;;;{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};;;;;{{#var:Dye}};;{{#var:Dye}};;;;;{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};

|A2=;;{{#var:Dye}};;;{{#var:Dye}};;;{{#var:Dye}};;{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};;{{#var:Dye}};;{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};;;;;;;{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};;{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};;
|B2={{#var:Banner}};;;;{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};;{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};;;;;{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};;;;;{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Banner}};;{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}}
|C2=;;;{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Dye}};;;{{#var:Dye}};;{{#var:Dye}};;{{#var:Dye}};;{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};;;;;;;{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};;{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};;

|A3={{#var:Dye}};;{{#var:Dye}};;;;;{{#var:Dye}};;{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Banner}};;;{{#var:Dye}};;{{#var:Dye}};;;{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};;;;{{#var:Dye}};;;;;;{{#var:Dye}};;{{#var:Dye}}
|B3={{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Banner}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Dye}};{{#var:Banner}}
|C3={{#var:Dye}};;;{{#var:Dye}};;;{{#var:Dye}};;;{{#var:Dye}};;;;;{{#var:Dye}};;{{#var:Dye}};;{{#var:Dye}};;{{#var:Dye}};;;{{#var:Dye}};;;;;;{{#var:Dye}};;{{#var:Dye}}

isn't particularly human-readable, or maintainable.

Now we need to start uploading the patterns, which I'm going to work on now. –Majr ᐸ Talk
Contribs ⎜ 06:12, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

I did some of them. Creeper Charge,Skull Charge,Flower Charge,Mojang Charge, Bordure Indented,Field Masoned,Gradient,Base Gradient,Chevron,Inverted Chevron Oozebull (talk) 21:29, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

@Majr: Yeah, I figured you'd do something like that. It was really complicated when I found I made a error with a recipe to go and fix it, plus did not allow for further additions easily. Only problem I see is that when using white it shows an input of white and an output of gray.

Edit: is there a way to set the link of the thumbnail to always link to Banner? Making that many redirects would just be a pain. --KnightMiner ^(t|c) 03:27, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

@KnightMiner: Done and done. Creating the redirects is easily automated so might as well do that anyway. –Majr ᐸ Talk
Contribs ⎜ 06:41, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

I noticed that the banner does the white to light gray thing here as well. Would an alias be useful to make the first banner gray? The main question is if there is a way to remove the need to set the ingredients parameter to fix that minor issue. --KnightMiner ^(t|c) 15:52, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

The output from the "banner crafting" template looks alot better than the output of crafting template. Maybe do some tweaks so that they are shown better the old one also? Oozebull (talk) 19:10, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

The first bordure banner

The first bordure banner has the incorrect tooltip - it states that the arrangement is fixed except for the banner, however there is only one place you can place the banner so the tooltip should not be there. –Goandgoo ᐸ Talk
Contribs
Edits 12:50, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Banner editor links

Hello. Are web-tool links allowed on this wiki? In this specific case, can I include links to banner planners in the bottom of the page? Algoinde (talk) 20:03, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

The wiki's rule 11.1 states

Links to external communities within articles are not allowed, unless it is a cited reference. This does not apply to tutorials, mod pages and the userspace.

Although I am unsure of whether that applies to popular servers, forums, and subreddits; or any fan made website and websites about fan creations/discussions. The style has been to avoid them though.

You can definitely do such on a tutorial page though, such as a tutorial about making banner patterns. --KnightMiner ^(t|c) 20:15, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

This page itself is a complete tutorial about making banners.

So, if linked site consists only of one page with javascript, it will not fall under that rule (not a community). But, as you said, the style has been to avoid them, so I'll keep with that. The link, just in case. You or someone else can add this if it will be considered okay. Algoinde (talk) 21:06, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

The page is not really a tutorial, as it simply states the facts, and not how to use the facts. A tutorial on making banners would tell you about the best way to find the materials, easier/cheaper ways to make certain designs, and ways to make a design look nice. --KnightMiner ^(t|c) 21:18, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

British flag

British flag painted wrong. In the original "+" on the top "X". Here's how: http://algoin.de/bngn/?=eapmpnbjplpwbz ShumShumoff (talk) 05:51, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

BlockEntityTag?

Can someone confirm that, when you create or pick up a patterned banner, the patterns are stored in the item's BlockEntityTag? Data Values ony talks about the banner as a block, not as an item… —munin · 16 px 16 px · 21:11, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

It is correct, as proven using /blockdata on a chest with a banner. –KnightMiner ^(t·c) 21:22, 2 December 2014 (UTC)