Minecraft Wiki talk:Style guide

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Italics[edit]

I think we need to add a part that says that Bedrock Edition and Legacy Console Edition should not italicized. While other versions need. Skylord wars (talk) 00:06, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

 Support--Orange Glazed Terracotta.pngMadminecrafter12TalkContributions 14:13, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
Well on the main page, most editions name are already italicized. Well, I still think "Legacy Console Edition" should be named as "Legacy Console Edition". See Talk:Legacy Console Edition#Italic words--Skylord wars (talk) 14:26, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Move the page to Minecraft Wiki:Manual of Style?[edit]

Hello. I think this page to be moved to Minecraft Wiki:Manual of Style to match Wikipedia's title, instead of Minecraft Wiki:Style guide. A redirect can also be created from MCW:Style guide. --Philip57sundfors (talk) 12:00, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

 Oppose, style guide suits our wiki better. We're a small wiki with not as many people as the big wikipedia, where they need many regulations to deal with so many editors. Here, we just have a guide and that's formal enough IMO. We don't want to dictate and scare away our new editors haha. – Jack McKalling [ User page Talk page Contributions ] 13:27, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
 Oppose: Seems like a change just for the sake of changing it. Style guide is clear enough to state the purpose of this page. KnightMiner · (t) 17:47, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
 Meh. The exact name isn't important here; both "style guide" and "manual of style" communicate the page's purpose just fine, so there's really no strong argument for changing from one to the other. Redirect the redlink and move on. ディノ千?!? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 23:09, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
 Done Redirect from redlink created. – Jack McKalling [ User page Talk page Contributions ] 23:21, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
 Slightly oppose. In my opinion either way works fine, but if the title is already Style Guide, I don't see any major benefit of moving it.--Orange Glazed Terracotta.png Madminecrafter12TC 00:51, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
 Oppose “Manual” seems to sound too vast, like the UNIX man system including hundreds of pages. Plus it doesn’t look like a rational change; on both stances I agree with others. Also, “it is done on Wikipedia” can’t be a good argument by itself. — BabylonAS (talk | ru.Wiki Admin) 17:00, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

References[edit]

This wiki doesn't really have any rules regarding references; editors usually just add plaintext links. I find that this doesn't look that good and also doesn't give the reader much information on the page. I have created a few templates ({{Article}}, {{SnapshotLink}}, {{Link}}) that are loosely based off of Wikipedia's citing templates, but I seem to be mostly the only one using them (although {{Article}} is used on all recent snapshot pages). I just think there need to be some guidelines of linking references. Thoughts? – Nixinova Grid Book and Quill.png Grid Diamond Pickaxe.png Grid Map.png 07:00, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Suggestion: strongly recommend to use the most specific template possible with plaintext links as a last resort. --AttemptToCallNil (report bug, view backtrace) 08:00, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

New textures in images[edit]

When adding screenshots to an article, make sure the screenshots use vanilla textures and UI. Screenshots that use custom texturepacks, UI mods and other custom content are not allowed.

Does this apply to the new textures? – Nixinova Grid Book and Quill.png Grid Diamond Pickaxe.png Grid Map.png 07:10, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

The rule does not apply when the purpose of the screenshot in question is to demonstrate said custom content. This seems to be mentioned immediately after the sentence you quoted: "This does not apply to articles covering mods."
Yes, when this rule was created, nobody could have thought content may be officially developed as an alternative to default data. Even if this case isn't an exact match (the new textures are intended to eventually replace the old ones, and are temporarily offered as a beta release), I think we should clarify this guideline a bit. --AttemptToCallNil (report bug, view backtrace) 07:57, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

“Weaknesses” sections[edit]

On some new pages such as Dolphin there are “Weaknesses” sections. I propose that these sections be disallowed, as tutorial information is generally excluded from normal pages. The BlobsPaper.png 22:44, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Definitely part of non-tutorial information in this case. It describes properties of the mob, it doesn't provide instructions as to what to do. In other words, Trolls are weak to fire, taking 25% more fire damage. is fine by itself, and should be in the article. However, if someone added So don't forget to include your fire mage in your party whenever you're going through troll territory! after the first sentence, that should be removed as "tutorial content". (Yes, these examples aren't Minecraft related at all, but the concept still applies.) --AttemptToCallNil (report bug, view backtrace) 22:57, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Removal of the "American English" mention[edit]

Hi!

I would like to suggest to remove the following line: "Pages on the wiki should use American English unless the in-game name is British English. For instance, “colour” should be “color”, and “centre” should be “center”. " And probably replace it with something way more appropriate, like the text of the help wiki: gphelp:Gamepedia_Help_Wiki:Tutorial/Keep_in_mind#National_varieties_of_English. I really think however that it should be clear that the in-game terms of en_US are the one to use on the Wiki, as they are the official language of the game.

Every user should feel free to write the way they learned to, and there is no good reason why to require users to use rules from a particular place or country in the world. We should also avoid to "correct" something good in another region, simply for the sake of correcting.

Of course, consistency is something important, and we should perhaps state that we should spell words (like "center"/"centre") the same way everywhere in a same article. (wp:Manual_of_Style#National_varieties_of_English is a good reference on that matter).

JSBM (talk) 01:50, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

The in game name part should not be removed as you really need to follow the in game name. The strange thing is, although Minecraft (game) uses American English as their default, Minecraft.net uses British English instead. I  Agree with removing the line saying that the wiki should be using American English. skylord_wars (talk) 02:07, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but to me it makes the most sense to use something consistent throughout the wiki, and American English makes more sense because it's what the game uses. I weakly think that the statement is okay the way it is. However, I do think that it's not really useful to make an edit if it's just to change British English to American English. It kind of just clogs up page histories and recent changes, with little benefit. Honestly, I personally am not really picky on the exact variety of English used - all users can almost always read and understand the other variet(y)(ies) so it doesn't really matter that much imo. I am definitely open to other ideas, and depending on what other responses this gets, I may change my mind about this as well. If we do remove the line, though, which I don't hold any strong objections to, that we should specify when what variety should be used, or if it matters at all.-- Madminecrafter12Orange Glazed Terracotta.pngTalk to meLight Blue Glazed Terracotta.png 02:12, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
You can see wikipedia:MOS:ENGVAR as an example. Article names of in game things should use in game name, which is by default American English. Though the contents of the article may contain some bits of other English variants. Tutorial pages should instead be not be restricted. Plus, the English wiki is made up of many English-speaking people, but not all of them are American. Redirects can be made if there are different names. That is why I support the statement to remove that line. We should also add a line redirecting to Gamepedia's Manual of Style. skylord_wars (talk) 02:31, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 Neutral. Either a potential for potato chip wars or seemingly arbitrary, yet strictly enforced common standard. --AttemptToCallNil (report bug, view backtrace) 13:02, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 Oppose. As opposed to Wikipedia, the Minecraft Wiki has no region-specific articles, so we can't decide on what variety of English to use based on the Article contents. If we remove that guideline, that would mean that the wiki no longer follows a uniform variety of English. I don't see any profit in that, at all. All it would do is causing confusion. As American English is Minecraft's default language, it only makes sense to have this wiki written in American English. | violine1101(Talk) 17:11, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
 Oppose: Consistency in writing style is the goal, and so yes, some single standard has to be adopted. – Sealbudsman talk | contribs 21:48, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
 Oppose with same arguments as mentioned above. Although I'd personally prefer British English as a language, the wiki makes the most sense in American English, and it needs to be specifically one or the other. We're working together with too many people already to allow for such useless conflicts as minor spelling disagreements. Which is what would arrise if we removed that line. There are more important things in life (and here on the wiki) than personal preferences in spelling. – Jack McKalling [ Talk Contrib ] 09:33, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Bedrock Edition: is it an official name?[edit]

While listed here on the Mojang website as a specifier, few other official sources use this term; in particular, this page doesn't. Editions based on the Bedrock code platform are now simply marketed as Minecraft.

A slow edit war is ongoing where instances of Bedrock Edition in articles are italicized and deitalicized. Even the style guide itself had one undiscussed edit which was reverted.

I think we need to determine whether "Bedrock Edition" is to be considered an official name, and consequently, whether it should be capitalized in articles. --AttemptToCallNil (report bug, view backtrace) 11:14, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

 Support for keeping Bedrock Edition as the official name. The different editions for different all run on the Bedrock engine and are all commonly known as Bedrock Edition as a consequence. As Bedrock is the official name for that engine, it makes sense to simply have all those versions (or editions, so you like) known as Bedrock Edition officially.
I may also note that the Minecraft.net help page is for individual versions on different platforms, as it would be rather difficult to write an article which addresses all platforms running Bedrock Edition (what applies for an Android device usually does not go for a Windows device and vice versa; same goes for the consoles). —DarkShadowTNT (t ♦ c) 11:38, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
@Marioprotvi and Giorgosarv18: Both of you: please stop reverting each other's edits that change Bedrock Edition to italicized or not, until there is a consensus here. You are welcome to comment here, but if the edit war continues, page protection or even short user blocks may be necessary.-- Madminecrafter12Orange Glazed Terracotta.pngTalk to meLight Blue Glazed Terracotta.png 14:26, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
As I recall from this discussion, the official name was either just "Minecraft" or "Minecraft (Bedrock)". For the sake of consistency its been called Bedrock Edition on the wiki, but that is not as official as Java Edition or Console Edition. Basically, in most cases they want to drop the "Bedrock" and call it just Minecraft, but for our cases we need the clarification. Since we now have a Mojang link calling it "Bedrock Edition", I say it seems pretty official when referring to all of Bedrock as a whole. KnightMiner · (t) 20:06, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
Yes, I  Support considering "Bedrock Edition" as an official name. It is not wrong to call each Minecraft edition on those individual platforms, instances of "Bedrock Edition". We're comparing full-product titles with software titles here, which not always correlate, due to a product sometimes containing embedded software, hence the confusion. I would definitely consider Bedrock (in the form of a game engine), as embeded software here. And as such, it carries the name of "Bedrock Edition" as a product name separate from the minecraft game (e.g. "Minecraft for Windows 10") that it is exposing. The reason for that is that Bedrock itself, is unquestionably a product of its own, has its own title, and in that way has nothing to do with the games released for the different platforms that use its codebase. Just like how all Samsung smartphones use "Android" operating system, and that "Android" itself is a name that has nothing to do with Samsung. The only difference being that Bedrock was developed by the same company that released the games.
And all this talk about official names and what not, questioning what should be formatted in italics or not, has everything to do with Bedrock being a "Major works of art and artifice", as wikipedia seems to call it. Although not listed there, a game engine meets all the described criteria to be a "major works", and in a different wording, is essentially a product on its own, regardless of it not having been publicly used as a standalone one. It has its own development space, name, version system and codebase, all completely independent from the publicly released products that carry the name "Minecraft" or "Minecraft (Bedrock Edition)". So it should (or could, I don't care about the result of this discussion), be identified as an official title that needs italics. Because this formatting has nothing to do with whether Mojang has officially announced or released Bedrock as a separate product, or whether them using the name is considered "official" or not. – Jack McKalling [ Talk Contrib ] 12:56, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
For reference, "software other than games" (game engines are not games) is listed in wikipedia:MOS:TITLES#Neither, where such titles are stated as not to be italicized or put in quotes. --AttemptToCallNil (report bug, view backtrace) 13:54, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
But although correct that a game engine is not a game, it absolutely is game software. So it is arguable whether game engines should be defined by that category, and one could very well argue that it should even be renamed to "Software other than game software". It's not really "proof" that game engine names should not be italicized. – Jack McKalling [ Talk Contrib ] 14:08, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
That's not what it says. The proposed change makes quite little sense; it looks like it's done to fit a viewpoint on a very specific question; also, this is definitely not de facto practiced on en.wikipedia. --AttemptToCallNil (report bug, view backtrace) 14:23, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
In this blog post, mojang specifically says "Bedrock Version", so it should be italic. (possible change Bedrock Edition to Bedrock Version) FVbico (talk) 15:46, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
I don't really see advantages to have the official names in italics. With that in mind, I suggest to remove the entire Italics section, instead. JSBM (talk) 15:56, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
 Support: There is absolutely no point in italiczing official titles, the Style Guide doesn’t even specify why they should be italiczed. --Giorgosarv18 (talk/contribs) 19:46, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, but I have to  Disagree. Bedrock Edition is the name we use "officially" within the wiki, but that's irrelevant to the question. As we learned in English class in grade school, the correct usage of italics (for the relevant purposes) is governed by the rules of English composition. Specifically, a term is written in italics when it names a "complete body of work" such as a book, periodical, or software product. There is no body of work named Bedrock Edition — that's just an abstract idea we invented to aggregate the various Bedrock versions — so italicizing it is misleading and incorrect. I can see how editors might have thought the italics have something to do with "officialness", but there's no rule, or even custom, for expressing such a status in prose. – Auldrick (talk · contribs) 17:54, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
I understand your reasoning. I was also not referring to officialness but indeed to that complete body of work you're talking about. I just don't agree with you that Bedrock is not a complete body of work (or "major work of art" as I like to call it). Just because we can't download a "Bedrock Edition" does not mean it isn't a full software product. – Jack McKalling [ Talk Contrib ] 18:40, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
Actually, it does mean that. "Bedrock Edition" doesn't refer to any particular software product, it refers to a collection of them, each of which is titled Minecraft with an X Edition subtitle. But an aggregation can also be considered a body of work (e.g. under copyright law), so your argument is still valid. My objection is that this collection either has no name or is named Minecraft; it isn't named "Bedrock Edition". I would also like to note that when we were searching for a term of art for this collection, Mojang asked us not to use "Bedrock Edition" for fear that people would think it was a product and be frustrated when they couldn't find it for sale. We chose to use it anyway because we couldn't think of a better alternative, and it was specifically mentioned that Mojang's concern could be satisfied by not italicizing it. I don't think we should thwart that goal for the sake of a consistent reference style, especially one that's misleading. We should instead be emphasizing to our readers that Bedrock Edition is not an actual edition, it's a version. (My earlier attempts to promote this idea were widely rejected, and it won't surprise me if my present argument is as well.) – Auldrick (talk · contribs) 20:54, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
Ok you've convinced me, I revoke my previous opinion, and I'd like to think of one such alternative to work around those concerns before I formulate a new one. – Jack McKalling [ Talk Contrib ] 20:58, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

New proposal[edit]

A new idea I just had for working around the italicizing problem, is by changing the name of Bedrock Edition to just "Bedrock editions". No italics, but plural. Lowercase "editions" because it isn't one product. Forget it's an engine, as we need to refer to specifically the collection of multiple platform adaptations of the game. Anywhere we're referring to Bedrock in an article, rephrase it to refer to the collection of editions rather than a single product, and remember that for instance "Education Edition" is an one of the "Bedrock editions". Modify templates like {{only}} and {{exclusive}} to use this naming (in their display) while still using "bedrock" as a key (in the parameters). Never refer to "Bedrock Edition" anywhere at all, but delete that name and refer to the collection of editions that use this game engine instead of referring to the engine (name) itself. Rename Bedrock Edition to the new name and keep redirect. Update Bedrock edition. Did I miss anything? What you guys think? – Jack McKalling [ Talk Contrib ] 22:57, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Is the same approach applicable to the term "Legacy Console Edition"? --AttemptToCallNil (report bug, view backtrace) 04:11, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
Good idea, "Legacy Console editions" sounds good to me. – Jack McKalling [ Talk Contrib ] 07:26, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
Do we need to capitalize "Console"? (e: or "Legacy"?) --AttemptToCallNil (report bug, view backtrace) 08:29, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
I think it would be "legacy console editions," all lowercase. – Sealbudsman talk | contribs 18:50, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
I'd love to see us use "(the) Bedrock editions", and to link only [[Bedrock]] (i.e. not [[Bedrock edition]]s) to emphasize even more that it's not a single edition. However, it's been done this way so long that I think Bedrock Edition already has a firmly entrenched meaning in the public mind, and we should be cautious about how far we deviate from how the public conceives it (even though it was the wiki, more than anything else, that planted the seed). I don't claim to have the answer to that, I'm just suggesting that we should consider it as a factor. – Auldrick (talk · contribs) 15:04, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
Well, eventually people get used to change. Most people don't call poppies "roses" anymore for instance. – Jack McKalling [ Talk Contrib ] 15:08, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
I believe that even if it goes against the public grain to a degree, it is still proper that the wiki be a force that corrects misconceptions in whatever way. – Sealbudsman talk | contribs 18:50, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
I think you have the right idea. Perhaps even the article should be called Bedrock editions, which would more reflect its multiple nature. – Sealbudsman talk | contribs 18:50, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
I  Support this proposal; as you said, it's not 1 version, but several, it's not an edition but a codebase, so bedrock editions makes much more sense.
Also seeing the lack of activity, I feel like this idea could be started, but I'd wait until other admins agree with me here. FVbico (talk) 14:40, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
Lack of replies is just sad. Madminecrafter12 and AttemptToCallNil do you agree we can start this solution?
Let's do it. --AttemptToCallNil (report bug, view backtrace) 20:25, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Can I assume, given that we're on the Style Guide talk page, that this includes explicit instructions to be added to the Guide? – Auldrick (talk · contribs) 20:29, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Of course, we need to tell all editors that way (I don't know how though). And when it is in, also mention the style guide update on the com portal. – Jack McKalling [ Grid Book and Quill.png Grid Diamond Pickaxe.png ] 21:55, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

MCW:UPTODATE should explicitly not apply to overview pages[edit]

This has been the de facto behavior for many years, but since someone decided to remove the information from Commands, I'm proposing we make it more explicit (and bureaucratic). It's probably worth taking a look at the discussion on that change too.

Note that Block § Removed blocks, Item § Removed items, and Mob § Removed/Unimplemented mobs exist. These articles all provide an overview of content, and act as a list of instances of the relevant type. Contrast that with the example article given in MCW:UPTODATE; this is an actual article and not a list. The example given is cluttered, but mentioning that there used to be other mobs after the big list of mobs is not really an issue. If that information were ghettoized into edition-specific articles, few would ever find it. That doesn't mean that the main information on them can't be in an edition specific article; it's just that hiding that information from all other pages makes for a worse experience.

Basically, I think something along the lines of "This guideline does not apply to lists and overviews where additional information does not harm readability" should be added to the section, to match the existing uses. --Pokechu22 (talk) 01:13, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

 Support -BDJP (t|c) 01:42, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
 Neutral I really don't see the point of making those pages exempt, every single case you linked is a specific removed section which sounds pretty close to a history section. I think it makes more sense to just expand the current guideline to include "Removed X" as an alternative to a history section used in list articles. KnightMiner · (t) 05:16, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
I'm fine with something like that too. My main reason for even bringing it up is that information like that is useful and shouldn't be deleted (like it was on commands). Frankly, I'd rather not even be having this discussion, but since I was forced into it, I'm fine with any method of making it more explicit or just deciding that we don't need to bother and can just have that information (as it already was). --Pokechu22 (talk) 18:44, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
I already mentioned on the commands page that the problem could easily have been solved by doing exactly what the pages you reference are doing: just add a section for removed commands instead of keeping them in the main current commands table. It really did not need a policy change unless you wanted to call it something besides history, and even then removed is pretty clear that its history. KnightMiner · (t) 00:08, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
 Oppose. The guideline is explicitly titled "Keeping articles concise and up to date". If anything, an "overview" page (if we had any consensus on what that means) should be more concise and up to date, for the same reason that a table of contents presents less detail than the text it points to. The majority of our readers use the wiki to learn how the game works. Obsolete information just gets in their way. I understand that a few people might have interest in the game's history. If the History sections aren't detailed enough for them, it's a simple matter to pull up an old revision that has what they need. Come to think of it, a link to the prior revision in the "removed X" History entry might be a good way to provide for such needs routinely. – Auldrick (talk · contribs) 04:35, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
This is for a single section or mention in a general table, again not in prose where it's harder to skim over. I hardly see that getting in the way and nobody really seems to have minded the inclusion of those sections until now. My rough definition for an overview is an article that lists all instances of something, but I don't think it really needs to be defined as we are not WP:LAWYERs. Such lists really should list all instances, not just 98% of them. There's a difference between "concise" and "incomplete" (just as there's a difference between dense and cluttered). To put it another way, were I to say "The majority of readers do not care about PE; argal, all information about PE should be confined within a single article" you'd consider that absurd (and question my motives since there is a clearly implied "I don't care about PE; argal the majority of readers do not" which probably is not true).
Regarding the revision history, yes that does exist and it is useful. However, there are some issues regarding accuracy and all that — you're locked in to what the page looked like when the information was added (and for some things, information was just not known until much later on and there's no practical way to document it as it doesn't make sense to revert to the Alpha version of the page, make an edit, and revert back to present...). But that's a separate issue which can be solved later; here I'm specifically talking about keeping since-removed things in lists and overviews (with the details being documented elsewhere), as is already the case. --Pokechu22 (talk) 18:44, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

MCW:FUTURE should partially not apply to the PlayStation 4 Edition[edit]

Reviving this discussion from nearly four years ago, I would like to bring up again the possibility of the PlayStation 4 Edition being partially amended from this rule. This is due to the PlayStation 4 Edition having two instances that work against it:

  1. The PlayStation 4 Edition (as far as I am aware) has no development versions that are available to the public.
  2. The only source to conclude that features are planned to be added to the PlayStation 4 Edition is through the 4J Studios Twitter account, as evidenced here.

As a result, I propose to add the following line to MCW:FUTURE:

The PlayStation 4 Edition is partially exempt from this rule as no development versions for said edition are available to the public, and the only source to conclude that features are planned to be added is through images posted by the 4J Studios Twitter account.

-BDJP (t|c) 04:07, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Exempting the PS4 would mean there's no rule at all about planned updates for it. Wouldn't it be better to specify different criteria for it (namely, that it's mentioned on 4J's Twitter feed)? And perhaps a different way of marking the information, if {{upcoming}} doesn't support the PS4? (I'm ignorant on that question.) – Auldrick (talk · contribs) 04:12, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
@Auldrick I have updated the original post accordingly. -BDJP (t|c) 06:45, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
 Disagree The big issue is that just because something is tweeted about does not mean it will be in the game. It is impossible to tell whether a tweet is a feature that is in the next version, a far future version, or is of a feature ultimately scrapped. This issue is not solved by a lack of development versions, it is made worse by a lack of development versions as we have no way to see a feature was added then later removed. We have mentioned features and planned versions articles to gather such information, no need to include it on feature articles. KnightMiner · (t) 00:13, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Slight rewording[edit]

I’ve slightly reworded the proposed addition below:

The PlayStation 4 Edition is partially exempt from this rule as no development versions for said edition are available to the public, and the only source to conclude that features are planned to be added is through images posted by the 4J Studios Twitter account. This exemption only applies to pages that have a "platform availability" section, such as Mob.

-BDJP (t|c) 18:02, 13 April 2019 (UTC)